posted 07-15-99 02:15 PM            

Tom Barsanti knows how radio works. He is Sr. Vice President and General Manager at Jeff McClusky & Associates, an independent radio promotion company - a.k.a. Indie - the link between the broadcast industry and the record industry. Indies have connections to the people that matter. Jeff McClusky & Associates is the nation’s biggest independent promoter, with an emphasis on Top 40, rock, alternative, adult, urban and crossover radio.

When a record label has a song they want to get on the radio, they contact an independent record promoter like Jeff McClusky & Associates because they have strong relationships with more than 150 commercial radio stations. The Independent Record Promoter makes sure the record gets played and gets the proper attention it needs to break at radio.

Tom is a veteran when it comes to the radio game. He was good enough to answer our questions about the intimate workings of the radio business….

MP3.COM: What does an independent radio promoter do?

TOM BARSANTI: We’re hired to help promote songs to radio stations. We’re primarily hired by record companies, but also managers, artists, film companies, publishers….

MP3.COM: A lot of labels have their own radio promotion departments, why is an independent promotion company hired to get songs on the radio?

TOM BARSANTI: It varies. In the case of a smaller, independent label that may have a small promotion staff - if any - they need the extra support because they can’t cover all the bases. In the case of a large label, even though they have their own promotion staff, they feel that the relationships that a company like ours has, and the credibility at radio that we carry can help them in their efforts to get the music exposed and break their artist.

MP3.COM: How does the process of breaking a song work?

TOM BARSANTI: The game plan is different from every song, but typically, when we get involved, it’s because the label has contacted us regarding. We follow their game plan in terms of timing. Generally, the label has serviced the record to the radio stations. We’ll follow that up as will their local and regional people. We help them by contacting the stations we have relationships with, talking about the music and using our promotional efforts to help.

MP3.COM: How does Jeff McClusky & Associates decide which records to work?

TOM BARSANTI: In the case of our regular clients, we work pretty much everything they release. We’re on virtually every project. so the decision is pretty simple there. In the case of a smaller label who might bring us something on occasion, we’ll look at a project based upon how we feel about the music and whether we feel it’s something we can help with. We don’t want to waste our time and waste the potential client’s time and money.

We sometimes get people coming to us without distribution, but they have songs recorded and want us to help them get something started. Typically we won’t get involved unless the artist is signed and has distribution. We come it at that point.

MP3.COM: What are the criteria you use for choosing the records you promote?

TOM BARSANTI: Most of the time we’re involved because the label is a client, and we’re taking on the business from the client. It’s not a choice process most of the time. In the rare cases where their is a choice, we’ll listen to the music and have the people in our office who specialize in a particular genre or format spend time with the music. Then we’ll meet, we’ll discuss it, we’ll have a consensus - if people are excited about it, or if somebody in our office wants to champion a song and get the rest of the staff excited about it, then maybe that is something we would take on.

MP3.COM: How much does it cost to break a record to radio?

TOM BARSANTI: There’s no automatic cost. Some record break very easily and very quickly. A good example might be something pop like the Ricky Martin record. Ricky had his Grammy appearance and really stole the show. "La Vida Loca" was a record that was ready to explode.

Some songs are more radio friendly than other. You could have a case of a record that’s not particularly radio friendly, and getting it exposure may take a great deal of time and effort, but once it gets exposure it just takes off. All of those are factors that impact the cost. Obviously the harder it is to break, the longer it takes to break, all of that adds up, as opposed to some thing that breaks in a three week period.

MP3.COM: How long does it take to break a record?

TOM BARSANTI: That varies very much from record to record. Ricky Martin exploded in a couple of weeks, I’ve seen records take months to pop through, and you start a career that way. There’s not automatic timetable.

MP3.COM: How much of breaking a record is artistic talent and how much is marketing and promotion?

TOM BARSANTI: It’s always a combination. The music has to be there for it to work. I don’t care how much marketing and promotion you do, if it isn’t a hit, then it doesn’t matter. You can certainly get things that are not hits exposed on the radio and get them their shot, but in the long run it won’t make any difference. If the music is good, if the music is solid, if it’s a hit record, then the marketing pays off. Once the exposure is there, the song can take off. A hit record without marketing will be tough - it will have a struggle, it will have a tough time, but marketing without a hit record won’t make any difference.

MP3.COM: How does radio feel about the growth of online radio?

TOM BARSANTI: It’s still very new. A lot of broadcasters feel that Internet broadcasting will not have much impact on overall habits. You hear a lot of comparisons to what happened to television when cable came out. Over the years, cable has certainly impacted television, but television is still strong and is still a huge factor. A lot of people feel that this is a similar scenario, where there will certainly be an impact but not anything that will necessarily negatively impact broadcast radio. Nobody knows for sure, it’s way too early to know.

MP3.COM: When and how will a song that starts on the Internet break to radio?

TOM BARSANTI: Nobody knows. It hasn’t happened.

MP3.COM: Can it happen?

TOM BARSANTI: I don’t know? It’s certainly possible that it could happen as the Internet continues to grow. The thinking now is that there doesn’t seemed to be an organized way for a new artist to promote and market on the Internet. When people are listening to things on the Internet, whether it’s various radio streams or whatever, the audience is spread out. There aren’t huge numbers listening on any one Website at any one given time, so you don’t have any impact. With a song playing on KROQ in Los Angeles, you x number of thousand people will hear it at that minute. When audiences become larger, the Internet could become a factor.

MP3.COM: To break a song from the Internet to the radio, will they need an independent promoter, or someone like you?

TOM BARSANTI: Again, there’s no paradigm to this. Nobody knows. We’ve had discussions with various internet companies. Most of them feel a company like ours has a place in the picture and that we will be involved. We think that’s true. How it will work out, how it will flow hasn’t been determined, but I have to believe that we will be as much a force on the Internet as we are in the music industry.

posted 07-20-99 01:05 AM            

Hi Jodi,
I liked your piece on radio promo and I just wanted to share my
experience with anyone interested. We released our own CD and hired an indie
promoter for Specialty Shows. It got played on about 20 different stations
but then nothing happened. We felt it was a waste of money and attempting to
get on commercial radio is a waste of money and time. Most of us don't have
the time it takes to make a thousand calls a day to these stations so we
would have to hire an indie promoter to do so. This is extremely costly!
The single that we were promoting was in a major film, tv series, and cable
network series. This song is a slam dunk! In the end you will find out that
no matter how good the song is, commercial radio will never play it unless
there is some serious money behind it! It really is a shame. You see the
way it works is, the advertisers will pay more money if they know that their
commercial will air after the new Madonna song as opposed to the new
"Joe-Shmo" song. College radio is almost as tough (even though there are no
commercials). Money is key to radio and any aspect of promotion. So, my
advise is forget about radio, make music because you love it, keep working on
writing great songs and give your cd to everybody! Get your music out there
anyway you can. There is an audience for everyone despite the crap you're
being spoon fed on the radio. Good Luck!

posted 07-21-99 11:57 AM            

you ask -

> I wish someone would post a strategy for self marketing your music (i.e. not paying alot of money to people to market it) <

pardon the shameless plug here, but you set me up. my book, "making and marketing music: a musician's guide to financing your album"
will tell you what you need to know.

> What do you think about approaching a bands promotion from the 'CD single' angle? <

that format worked really well in the '60s, when bands like the beach boys would have their music released as singles, and then if enough singles became popular
the record company put out an album.

posted 07-24-99 08:13 AM            

But I'd like to quote from the lead-off article:

"We sometimes get people coming to us without distribution, but they have songs recorded and want us to help them get something started. Typically we won’t get involved unless the artist is signed and has distribution. We come in (sic) at that point.

That distribution and it's resultant commercial radio airplay is what YOU and your INDUSTRY STUPIDITY blew off mp3.com.

Best of luck to all your current and future damned fools ... they'll need it.

[This message has been edited by VANDOR MUSIC GROUP (edited 07-24-99).]

posted 07-25-99 04:55 AM            

i think everyone would like to succeed within the established music industry,
unfortunately, it is a business that requires lots of connections and money
to break an act.

most people don't have the money or relationships to do that, they're for
we're creating our own definition of
what it means to be a successful musician.

that's the beauty of mp3.com and the internet, it allows musicians the opportunity to get heard.

posted 07-26-99 07:54 AM            

If it is true (which everyone seems to agree) that a radio station of any consequence is not going to give significant air time to a song from a band without a release on a major label with major distribution, then how can VMG's practice of advising unknown artists with no record/CD out yet to upload their music to a promo-library and/or put it on a promotional CD (for $450 and $1300, respectively) have any hope of garnering the kind of radio play that will translate into demand for their product, a product which does not yet exist, but presumably would be produced if and when demand appears to be extant?

Sounds like the proverbial Catch-22.

In short, what significant radio stations are giving air to unknowns, at least to the point that it would be considered a smart investment to upload to VMG's promo library and/or get a slot on a promotional CD?

It would make sense to upload to the promo library only if a label has a particular artist's CD officially released and is now trying to make a determination on how much promotional muscle and dollars to put behind it. But the expense of making the record and some preliminary promotional has to have already occurred, and that money must be considered the "commitment" already made by the label - maybe "cost of doing business" would be a better way to phrase it.

The way I understand it, most radio stations get hundreds of promo CD's every week, and the vast majority, if not all, go straight into the circular file. Why? Because, as this interview (and everyone else) states, money talks and everything else walks.

Consequently, the same "thanks, but no thanks" practice would seem to apply to the idea of a radio program director scouring promo libraries for unknown artists/songs.

posted 07-26-99 08:21 AM         

or did you ever check such details in the charts i doubt it since you are one of the more ignorant on this and indieboard

and its obvious from jodi summers cop out that she doesnt know anything about radio either shes great at cut and paste but i doubt she ever had an original thought in her entire life if she had she might not be perpetuating the same ages old sounds good but doesnt work nonsense

i note that jodi edited out portions of general farrells post she couldnt stand to have read by anybody with any intelligence

and i note that general farrell and vmg has told mp3.com to go to hell which effectively locks the doors at all the major companies against mp3.com

and for those who care that eliminates radio airplay and record sales through commerical distribution for all mp3.com artists

posted 07-26-99 08:50 AM         

I would love for some experts to e-mail me with an opinion on this as I have been working on a solution for more radio play to Indies and am open to sharing other ideas concerning commercial radio play.

My e-mail address is musicglobalnetwork@home.com

posted 07-26-99 09:19 AM            

ARTISTS: I highly suggest that all of you "the music is the most important" thinking people seriously consider all of the posts above and take them to heart. RADIO, RETAIL AND RECORD LABELS COULD GIVE A SH*T IF YOU ARE THE 2nd COMING OF THE BEATLES, ok? If they can't SELL you, you are SCREWED. So get over it, get Jodi's book and LEARN something that will help you establish a strong, long-term career. (And write good, SELLABLE songs too!)

I also HIGHLY recommend these books (also available at AMAZON.COM):
--GUERILLA P.R. (M. Levine)
--The Billboard Guide to Music Publicity
--All you need to know about the Music Business (D. Passman)<--my bible
--How to be your own booking agent (and save thousands of dollars)
--Getting radio airplay.
--Guide to releasing independent records (Tim Sweeny)

Sorry, but I cannot remember the authors off the top of my head. Those are exact titles, so search for them. You'll be glad you did.

posted 07-26-99 09:41 AM            

Any help would be great! Thanks again!

posted 07-26-99 10:15 AM            

So what's your answer for all those unknowns that are encouraged to upload or have already uploaded to the promo libraries, but haven't released a full CD yet, or at least those that haven't released one on a major label?

Isn't one of the "selling points" of the upload that you can see how well your music will do before actually spending money creating a product and releasing it?

That's the part that doesn't make sense (along with some of your other ad hominem personal attack crap, and your inability to use punctuation or correct capitalization) - of what use would uploading to a promo library be if one does not already have a release on a major label with major distribution? What significant radio station is going to play music (in rotation, not just a one-shot "hour of indies" special) from an artist who doesn't have a CD from a major label with major distribution?

Just answer that question, or really put yourself out on the limb over shark-infested waters by making claims that can't possibly be true, in giving false hope to indies whilst raking in their money.

posted 07-26-99 10:54 AM            

The reason most radio stations wouldn't play more music from bands that have agreed to forego royalty payments is because:

a) even if the band could make such an agreement, the unions, other artists, and the performance rights organizations wouldn't stand for it.

but even more important:

b) radio stations don't pay royalties to bands themselves - they pay a licensing fee to any/all of the PRO's (ASCAP, BMI), and that fee is determined by numerous factors, e.g. geographical location and demographics of the audience reached, which directly translates into what genres of music and artists are played, even what ad revenues the station currently has and/or can generate.

Note that I'm not saying that the PRO's are privy to all the finances of a radio station, but I do know that they have a different licensing fee schedule for major market stations versus non-profit and/or college radio, etc., and pay royalties accordingly, e.g., a BMI-affiliated song played on KROC in New York might pay 12 cents (to be split by the pubs and writers), whereas the same play on WMUH college radio in Allentown might only pay 3 cents.

This licensing fee doesn't necessarily change based upon exactly which songs the radio plays in a given day (although theoretically, if all of the top black artists were affiliated with BMI, and a station only played urban/R&B, then maybe they would consider only paying BMI a fee, and ignoring ASCAP, but that is far-fetched given the reality of the PRO's and the numerous and varied artists they represent).

posted 07-26-99 07:56 PM         

Change breaks paradigms and the internet has changed a lot. Just like the hole that MP3 weaved through to help promote Independent bands better, there is a hole (a small hole getting bigger) for Independents to get onto commercial radio because of the internet and MP3, and the business models it allows. I see lots of opportunity. I believe this the next major movement in the music industry and I think this is going to freak out ASCAP and BMI but I'm sure it will be an overreaction on their part if they do (or a PR campaign) since that type of agency is important for collecting royalties.

I already have a stockpile of excellent artist which have allowed me to help promote them on commercial Radio and other commercial ventures and I plan to do so soon. My plan may have only a small impact at first on commercial radio, but on internet radio stations I think it will catch on fast and allow startups a capability to have content so they can create ad revenue.

How radio works is changing.

Michael Butterfield
President, Music Global Network
http://musicglobalnetwork.com/

posted 07-27-99 07:28 AM         

the reason radio doesnt play indies is because they cant afford to lose listeners

as for the royalty problem radio royalties dont go to the artists or record labels only to songwriters and publishers if they happen to be in the proper clique

walter (again) to clarify your ignorance chart activity is not from promolibrary downloads its from airplay and noone but an imbicile would release a total finished album without an established market for it thus the test before invest process of all the major companies

should any given release get sufficient public interest the majors are then in a position to make the investment to produce and deliver an album

posted 07-27-99 08:59 AM            

1) Doesn't somebody have to download the song before they can play it on their radio station or other venue? Therefore, doesn't the chart activity, especially on the so-called Satellite Charts, reflect downloading, rather than the actual airplay itself (which is assumed from the fact that the song was downloaded), be in on radio, elevators, or supermarket PA systems? I know I've heard the general himself say that downloads were monitored, since actual airplay on X number of radio stations would be tough to verify. If not, tell us some of the major stations in major markets that are currently airing songs like, e.g., Constellation You by Dan Gray, or As All The Angels Know by Chylon.

2) Didn't I state that royalties get split amongst pubs and writers? Any inference that the band would get royalties from the PROs is based upon the assumption that the band, any or all of it's members, wrote the material (which has been the norm ever since the Beatles came along and almost single-handedly replaced the "Brill Building" method of songwriting).

3) I'm getting tired of asking the same question, but here's one last go - why the hell would a major radio station play a song (whether it came from a promo library, compilation CD, whatever) from an unknown artist, no matter how good it was, if the availability of product is in doubt? You (and everyone else) says that it's impossible to get significant radio play under the best of circumstances, so what's the rationale behind advising an unknown to put a song up in a promo library or comp CD unless product is going to be available AND widely distributed? You're saying demand has to be created first (which makes sense), and the only way to create demand is to get radio play (which makes sense), but there's no way any significant radio stations are going to give the unknown artist radio play, and that's where the whole idea of promo libraries falls down. It would appear they are only useful for major artists on major labels with major distribution, and serve as a gauge to judge how much promotional muscle and dollars should be spent where and when on a product that has already been released or will be imminently.

posted 07-27-99 03:21 PM         

still mealy-mouthing with all exhuberance and saying nothing as usual

why would any major broadcaster play any unknown is a question from only the most idiotic mentalities

so just for your emotionalism they play unknowns because unknowns have something new or different as in the case of dan gray and chylon and lino and demarcus bennett and ... and ...

downloads are not in real time and therefore are not considered broadcasts

this isn't too steep for you is it

of course you clarified the royalties just like everybody else who really doesnt know in a thousand words where ten would do

if a song is tagged by a major it has distribution if not it doesnt but even the clods in broadcasting understand that do you want me to repeat it so you might get the grasp too

since promolibraries gained acceptance six or seven years ago all the majors test all but their shelving contract releases before they even print promocopies for radio saturation

as for artists trying to get their head in the door the list is well into the hundreds and since you know everything you ought to print that list for the other hopefuls

better still show the industry how to reach well over 5k music users for the same or lesser few bucks and you too can be rich perhaps then you could go back to school and get educated enough to be up to stupid

on second thought that wouldn't do

posted 07-27-99 04:06 PM            

quote:

---

that's the beauty of mp3.com and the internet, it allows musicians the opportunity to get heard.

---

I don't think we can compare mp3.com or any other site on the Internet to something like radio or television. People here are not being forced to listen to anything and they have to actually make an effort to download it before any benefit is felt by the artist.

I think the Internet is a great tool for people who already know you exist and want more information, but it's not going to turn the record industry on its head.

David Hooper
http://www.kathoderaymusic.com/ -- We make a living helping bands make a living.

posted 07-27-99 09:23 PM            

It seems that you're the one claiming to "know-it-all", and how lame that you counter my challenge to name names and major radio station airplay of your promo library and/or compilation CD successes with this type of non-sequitorial tripe.

RadioWiz, since all you can do is skirt the issues and pepper your half-witted dialog with nothing but how everyone else is stupid, and since you've been laughed off of other threads on this board, I'll make this my final posting for this thread.

You go on to state:
"better still show the industry how to reach well over 5k music users for the same or lesser few bucks and you too can be rich perhaps then you could go back to school and get educated enough to be up to stupid"

I suppose it is possible to get rich collecting $450.00 to $1350 from desperate artists who love their music and are trying to break into the business through any hope possible, and feeding them with your bull about promo libraries, 5K music users, and bogus charts. You call it cost-effective promotion, and it is indeed cheaper than mailing media to that amorphous 5K of industry pros you tout - all good propaganda contains germs of truth.

Yet in either case, the end result is the same for artists without a major label and imminent product; and that result is NO RESULTS, at least none enough to even recoup the costs of the service(s).

Sure, if Garth's or Shania's labels want to test market singles before the big hoopla of a release, that makes sense. But you don't deal with that calibre of successful artist, do you?

You merely waylay the dreams of the unsuspecting, and then when nothing happens, you rationalize it by saying: "Sorry, but we did warn you ahead of time that most songs never get airplay and most releases never make money."

Well, keep getting rich, and take comfort in the belief that this makes you smarter than all the other "superstupids" out there.

It certainly makes you shrewder, but has nothing to do with true intelligence. And although your earthly bank account may be well in the black, your account in the great karma bank is deeply in the red, symbolically apt in lieu of your taking bites out of victims with your song-sharkery.

In closing, let me reiterate: when you can compose a proper sentence and paragraph, with correct grammar, punctuation, and use of mixed-case letters, THEN you might justly point your finger about the stupidity and ignorance of others without having the proverbial three fingers pointing back at yourself.

posted 07-28-99 07:52 AM         

thank you for verifying my points of your ignorance

you just cant get it through your idiocies that any major including vmg that uses any of the electronic music services is going to back the successes because thats where the proven money is

or is your problem really a very long string of failures you blame everybody else for and vmg happens to be the target of the moment

as for me having to account to the likes of you please be advised i have been a broadcast consultant for more years than most people care to count and i do not take on clients who are as industry ignorant as you

broadcast radio works the way broadcast radio works and nobody made the rules except the cash registers

anyone who wants the benefits of broadcast radio is going to have to adhere to the rules by which broadcast radio works of which nondistributed product is the prime antibroadcast rule

as for any of the charts ive never seen anything of yours anywhere in the entire industry so accuse and challenge when you have the credibility to be something besides a selfappointed expert without a legitimate industry credit to your name

posted 07-28-99 02:26 PM            

Anyway, according to RadioWuz (and all those other little minions of the general) one is not allowed to challenge them to prove their claims unless one has a charted single or album.

Funny how such an unrelated-to-the-issue credential is demanded, yet they themselves, when asked for credentials (along the lines of who they have been able to produce success for through their promo library and compilation CD) go off the deep end and try to divert the issue and shut off all questioning by personally attacking those that dare ask.

If that doesn't smell like the behavior of the rottenest kind of song-sharking, scam-purveying, con-gamesters, then I don't know what does.

And how simple it would be to dissuade the doubters with a bit of professional demeanor and a few verifiable success stories! Or at least a couple of CD's that show VMG was the distributor or otherwise had a hand in getting them to market, like one can easily find in any music shop for the likes of Sony, BMG, Time-Warner, et al.

Well, the simple answer must be: there ARE NO success stories, hence the defensiveness and name-calling in an attempt to squelch the questioners, lest the gravy train of the $450 promo library and $1350 compliation CD con game (backed by that ridiculous Atlantic Satellite Chart scam, wherein a band-in-the-box arrangement of a song that just happens to have been written by the general himself is claimed to be 93 in the world!) come to a halt.

You bogus fiends!

1) Of course some of the major artists use promo libraries and put out their singles about a month before the album is due out! They want to generate some "juice" for their imminent product, and the major stations, knowing said product will definitely be available, and said artist has a track record of past success, will download and play the song! This doesn't mean that the same type of scenario works for an unknown, who doesn't know yet whether there is even going to be a release of a CD or not, especially not from a major label with major distribution (you know, one that someone can buy at Sam Goody, or The Wall, or even CD-NOW, or is that too much for YOU to comprehend?).

2) Of course no one is going to cry "wolf" - you keep them strung along for month with those phony and/or meaningless charts, and afterwards say: "Well, we did warn you that most music never gets airplay or makes any money from the start!" Besides, who likes to admit, especially after spending the money, that they either got conned or "didn't have what it takes" to make it in the music industry? So claiming that no one ever took you to court doesn't mean that your hands (or hearts) are clean.

posted 07-28-99 03:00 PM            

radio stations are not willing to play new artists even if they forfeit royalties because listeners would tune into other stations to hear songs that they already know and like, and advertising revenues would drop, as would indie "perks."

if you take a straw poll of the non-musical public, they want to hear music they are familiar with.

posted 07-28-99 03:24 PM            

"......there is no chance of airplay for indie musicians on the radio, because they don't have a 'major' type distribution channel."

I bet this was true for the last half century plus, but not for the next, because, as an unsigned artist, I already have a world-wide distribution channel thanks to the internet and MP3.com.

So I'm missing a trick here clearly. Why can't the DJ play my stuff (for free) and then say, "....that song was by Blueside, courtesy of MP3.com, download it for free." Now don't get picky about my stuff in particular! But the truth is, on MP3.com, one search takes you to the artist, and this is a DAM site easier then getting the bus into town and scouring the racks - 5 or 10 days later. As CDnow have also figured. So I just don't buy the distribution argument anymore?

In reality, the thirtysomethings are finally wising up to the fact the guys in suits at head office are programming the station playlist from a computer - the backlash will start eventually, for 'free' music stations, especially with digital radio. Eventually they'll search the net for the stuff they're looking for (18 months from now.)

A final note of caution for all unsigned artists on here (post this on the main board jodi!) - if someone asks you to pay them $1500 or so, to promote your stuff for you, then this means one thing: THEY DON'T THINK YOUR MUSIC IS ANY GOOD.

Read it and believe it. The same goes for publishing rights that have no advance fee - an increasingly common hedge bet if ever there was one.

Jodi, I think we need an unsigned artists 'charter' here on MP3.com, that lists, in stupid english like mine, the do's and don'ts so people know what to be wary of.

Regards

posted 07-28-99 03:35 PM            

you say...

"I think the Internet is a great tool for people who already know you exist and want more information, but it's not going to
turn the record industry on its head."

downloadable audio sites like mp3.com and emusic.com are about a year and a half old.
to use an appropriate cliche, "rome wasn't built in a day."

statistics predict that by 2004, 15% of music will be purchased online. if the music business stays flat, and doesn't grow, that's about $2 billion that will be spent downloading music.

numbers like that will definitely "turn the record industry on its head."

posted 07-28-99 03:46 PM            

>>if you take a straw poll of the non-musical public, they want to hear music they are familiar with.

To which, I say, yes this is true, but, Rome wasn't destroyed in a day either!

posted 07-28-99 04:58 PM            

I have alot of respect for MP3.COM and the concept behind it. However, I am now hearing radio advertising in our area (Phoenix) and not a single artist is mentioned in any of these ads, let alone a local artist! Why can't MP3.COM actually promote some of the artists that are its BACK BONE, even if we have to buy into the ads? I would pay 50% of the cost for radio ads if they'd pop my band's name in there! I have written Michael and asked that they offer the opportunity to us. Sure, only artists with budget could do it, but I think it would serve MANY functions:
1) It would deepen brand awareness of the MP3.COM name.
2) It would (GOD FORBID) give a little extra LOCAL exposure to a LOCAL band
3) People would hear the name of a local band in the ad and at least THINK that the advertiser took the time to tailor the ad campaign to the market....OH MY GOODNESS!! THEY ARE 'IN TOUCH' WITH WHERE WE ARE!
4) The band might get some people to a show or sell some DAM discs. (Which increases MP3.COM's bottom line.) and finally
5) It would DECREASE the cost of the radio ads to BOTH parties! (Further increasing MP3.COM's bottom line.)

I hope some other people will take the time to come up with ideas and pitch them to these guys. With something like a KA-JILLION bucks behind them now, you'd think they could help us out a bit.

At any rate, I'm not waiting around for it.

Pete
the Robies
http://www.robies.com/

posted 07-28-99 09:13 PM         

I think there is a lot NOT being discussed that CAN work. The foundation has already been built for the radio bridge. The radio bridge will be working soon and will have no tolls.

Come on gals/guys, lets get some ideas going.

Michael Butterfield
Music Global Network
http://musicglobalnetwork.com/
Promoting Artist through MP3s since September 1997

posted 07-29-99 04:38 AM         

You said:

quote:

---

So I'm missing a trick here clearly. Why can't the DJ play my stuff (for free) and then say, "....that song was by Blueside, courtesy of MP3.com, download it for free." Now don't get picky about my stuff in particular! But the truth is, on MP3.com, one search takes you to the artist, and this is a DAM site easier then getting the bus into town and scouring the racks - 5 or 10 days later. As CDnow have also figured. So I just don't buy the distribution argument anymore?

---

Great comments Blueside. That's exactly part of what I have been doing since early June to help bridge the gap between music on the internet and on the radio airwaves(The actual promotion starts in September). What you wrote is basically an excerpt off my contest page with the exception of MGN being mentioned in place of MP3.com.

Internet radio will IMO be 1 key that opens the door. Sites like mine and MP3.com have keys (content) that have the potential to make it all work.

Hey Jodi, I'm not sure if you are in San Diego or working for MP3.com at your home in a different state. If you are in San Diego, it would be cool to tag up with you and shoot the breeze on some of these ideas. I have no business agenda in mind or anything like that. It would be fun just to talk to someone like yourself that has experience in the industry to share ideas with. I'll be in San Diego for 9 days beginning August 25th.

Michael Butterfield
President, Music Global Network
musicglobalnetwork.com

posted 07-29-99 06:58 AM         

you stated/asked

So I'm missing a trick here clearly. Why can't the DJ play my stuff (for free) and then say, "....that song was by Blueside, courtesy of MP3.com, download it for free." Now don't get picky about my stuff in particular! But the truth is, on MP3.com, one search takes you to the artist, and this is a DAM site easier then getting the bus into town and scouring the racks - 5 or 10 days later. As CDnow have also figured. So I just don't buy the distribution argument anymore?

your question is valid and so is the answer

radio is required by cashregister to retain listeners not send them off to their computers or nonadvertising record stores so thats the why the dj cant plug your record for free or otherwise

as for distribution the same fact applies

radio has never aired music to sell the records only to draw listeners so they can charge advertisers

it will be a few years yet before the powers at both labels and broadcasters accept the internet as an equal and viable force for merchandising their products and services and why it should take so long for something so obvious is only typical of the industry

the internet has already proven to be viable and its anybodys guess how long it will take before it also proves to be equal

a prime example of broadcast programming mental limits is the fact that most stations would never play a local artist because you cant be an expert from here you can only be an expert from someplace far away like los angeles nashville or new york

its pure stupidity but its a fact of radio as is the equally nonsensical fact that most broadcasters wont play a record that has the same postmark as their own thus new york stations want a nashville or los angeles postmark nashville stations want a new york or los angeles and los angeles stations want a nashville or new york

youll note they dont have the same problem when it comes to advertising as theyll accept virtually anything that comes backed with money

as for your statement about paying anybody a given amount of money is tantamount to their not thinking your music is any good you are way off base

nobody forced anybody at mp3.com or any where else in entertainment to become a songwriter or a recording artist

they chose to be that/those respective businesses of their own accord and as such businesses only the most blatant of fools expects someone else to pay all the bills for them to be in such businesses

to quote the forbidden name of general farrell that once stated if anyone can show me the garage that general motors ford or chrylser gave to the mechanic or show me any restaurant that general mills armour star or heinz gave to the cook then ill give that person a free recording contract

and to date i doubt he has had any takers

most artists do not know that recording contracts contain abominable charge back clauses to recoup all the money the record company reputedly fronted and those charge back clauses are the source of all the horror stories of bo diddley meatloaf toni braxton and dozens of others

the current copy of vmgs contract does not contain any charge back clauses and their records are playing world wide even if some are not setting that same world afire

you are right about not paying any publisher but that has nothing to do with recording record promotion or distribution

one is publishing as in exploiting the copyrights and the others are separate industries having more to do with manufacturing and merchandising services

such little details are a critical element to programming consultants like myself and i hope the information is of some good use to you and every else who reads this thread

the tom

too bad you dont know what it takes to be a major label and squandering untold thousands of dollars trying to sell records nobody wants is not one of them

such fiscal absurdities do produce a lot of public recognition for the company right along with a proportionate share of public debt currently in the range of 2.3 billion in us dollars for each of the majors except vmg who is debt free

if either you or the god intelligenced walter jodi or anybody else on this board can list the five absolute factors for a record label to even have distribution then you may sit in judgment of what is and what is not a major label until then

vmg is a major

posted 07-29-99 07:32 AM            

Now, if instead of regurgitating all the usual VMG rhetoric, he'd just give us some hard statistics and names of successful artists and CD's which contain the VMG stamp that can be purchased at the local music stores, same as Sony, BMG, etc., then maybe the claim that VMG is major would carry some weight.

By the way, the analogy of cook:Heinz and mechanic:Ford being the same as band:record label is ill-founded.

You'd better believe that Ford will donate cars and promotional dollars to up-and-coming drivers on the stock and Indy circuits, and that Heinz will gladly do the same with product and advertising for a cook starting to make a name for him/herself on, for example, a local cable show that is starting to gain audience share).

posted 07-29-99 12:44 PM            

quote:

---

statistics predict that by 2004, 15% of music will be purchased online. if the music business stays flat, and doesn't grow, that's about $2 billion that will be spent downloading music.

---

I understand that the music business people are always looking ahead because I'm looking ahead myself, but most bands don't care about predictions that may or may not happen in five years. Like I said on another post, we'll eventually have people on the Moon, but that doesn't mean that I'm worried about breaking the guys on my label there.

quote:

---

I have alot of respect for MP3.COM and the concept behind it. However, I am now hearing radio advertising in our area (Phoenix) and not a single artist is mentioned in any of these ads, let alone a local artist! Why can't MP3.COM actually promote some of the artists that are its BACK BONE, even if we have to buy into the ads?

---

Yes, mp3.com really put independent music on the minds of many people. I'm afraid that this was only a stepping stone for bigger things like major label artists though. Michael Robertson is a businessman, not a musician. He showed everybody he could make millions with a bunch of nonames, so why couldn't he make billions with acts like Backstreet Boys and Ricky Martin? Supporting independent music is secondary to mp3.com.

As far as radio ads go, I have several techniques I use to get FREE advertising for indie bands on major stations. It's what we at Kathode Ray Music call guerrilla marketing. http://www.kathoderaymusic.com/consulting has more info if you're interested.

David Hooper
http://www.kathoderaymusic.com/ -- We make a living helping bands make a living.

posted 07-29-99 02:21 PM            

Quote >> radio has never aired music to sell the records only to draw listeners so they can charge advertisers

Now, I need to go away and think about that fact, and the fact that radio listeners do not tune into to listen to the adverts! There is a compromise going on here that might be exploited somehow.

You are of course right regarding my statement about promotion, nothing comes for free - however, if I can make just one artist think about what they will achieve realistically, then my radical stance has made its point. The sad fact is, its easy to jump at the offer of any kind of promotion without thinking about what it entails. You see, we all think we are great songwriters, and misinterpret the offer as proof that "...hey they think so too!" {BTW, did I mention that I'm a great songwriter?}

Finally I close with my opinion on MP3.com and their knowledge of the industry and the established business models. To quote an expert friend of mine who said, "Children are very intelligent - they just don't know anything!"

In this sentence, we can find support for both RadioWizards time-served understanding of the biz, AND Jodi's questioning positivism.

So I'm looking to the day when MP3.com grows up, and to paraphrase the above, "MP3.com IS a major label - they just don't know anything about it yet"

posted 07-30-99 12:41 AM            

I have never claimed to know a lot about how radio airplay or distribution works. These are not my fields of expertise. I am learning a lot by reading many posts on various Sites regarding these topics. Since radio operates on the basis of advertisers, perhaps several bands in tandem with MP3.com could buy advertising airtime to promote these bands and MP3.com. This would be legal. The airtime ads could start on smaller stations around the country.

posted 07-30-99 09:51 AM         

this is my last recognition of you in all the absolute contempt your stupidity deserves

phil

now you begin to agree that commercial radio has some value

but thats like closing the barn door after the horses are long gone

buying commercial radio airtime to play music is payola pure and simple but obviously mp3.com isnt above such immoralities

the fact major companies buy commercial time for their records through their consultants who also represent and advise the broadcasters and then only announce the fact such airings are commercials in the lowest listener times does not exempt nor excuse the immorality of the process

especially when those advertised records are aired throughout the broadcast day without such announcements for the sole and exclusive purpose of scamming the radio audience into thinking the song is really a hit

and to fully document general farrells and my statements that mp3.com destroyed a very positive opportunity to get mp3.com artists on commercial radio ask michelle if she was approached by tom florian with respect to a ten song cd through vmg and ask if she received a package of vmg products with respect to that endeavor

if she denies it then she is a liar because i received an identical package and copies of the communications from general farrell when i was consulted about the project

general farrell is far too honest to say he did something he really didn't do and he simply forwarded me copies of the emails and posted me the package so I know for a fact she received the data

ask her then post an answer for all to read and be sure to keep it honest because I have the facts and will publish the entire episode in detail

however as general farrell stated in his duly jodi-edited post mp3.com blew that offer along with its commercial broadcast airplay and followup promotion and distribution of any contained successes right out the window with your industry ignorance and abject stupidity

and now with jodi summers equally and duly documented stupidities you have made an enemy out of general farrell and vmg to the loss and detriment of all mp3.com artists

regardless of what you deem general farrell to be or not to be mp3.com and all mp3.com artists are going to have to reckon with his influence with all the major companies in the days to come

posted 07-30-99 10:38 AM            

You keep throwing around the "stupids", but I'll tell you what is really stupid.

Going to that Atlantic Satellite Chart, taking some of the lesser-known names at random out of the top 100 and looking them up in CD-NOW, and being able to find a CD release for ALL of the artists listed, EXCEPT TWO - those two being the artists from the so-called VMG artist series compilation CD upload.

Truly a stupid coincidence that songs supposedly in the top 100 of the world can't be purchased anywhere.

Likewise, a search on "label" over at CD-NOW shows one and only one record with the VMG stamp on it - something called Prophecy of P.A.N.I.C./Soul Reactivator (from 1993 I believe, but that year could be off).

That is the extent of "product" available from the "major" VMG.

posted 07-31-99 08:44 AM         

phil

airplay

nobody can achieve national or international commercial airplay without the support of the majors whether it be umg bmg emi wdc wea crg efa or vmg

specifically but not limited to mp3.com

posted 07-31-99 10:40 PM         

Nothing is impossible if you think big

Michael Butterfield
musicglobalnetwork.com

posted 08-01-99 06:03 AM            

thanks for the excellent post on
"the reason most radio stations wouldn't play more music from bands that have agreed to forego royalty payments"

posted 08-01-99 06:25 AM            

you say...'

>>I would pay 50% of the cost for radio ads if they'd pop my band's name in there!<<

have passed this info along to the appropriate people (michael's not the guy)

and will get back to you regarding.

by the way, i'm an asu grad

posted 08-01-99 06:56 AM            

first off....thanks for holding off on the insults and offering some of your extensive knowledge.

you ask me to -

>> list the five absolute factors for a record label to even have distribution then you may sit in judgment of what is and what is not a major label until then <<

don't know them off the top of my head,
but can ask my contacts in distribution.

i don't profess to know everything,
i just know the people to ask.

posted 08-01-99 07:15 AM         

then stop being such a hypocrite towards general bobby farrell and vmg and anyone who agrees with them

you can start by answering my question about the vmg offer michelle blew for mp3.com

jodi

the question was posed to your duly endorsed fellow industry ignorant the tom

but ill let you answer the question or admit your industry ignorance

posted 08-01-99 07:19 AM            

why do you insist on being so incredibly
nasty to everyone?

you were a recording artist in the
early '40s. that makes you more than
70 years old - older than most of our parents and some of our grandparents.

you obviously have a lot of wisdom to share.

can't you conduct yourself in manner that's
befitting your age and wisdom.

posted 08-01-99 08:35 AM         

[This message has been edited by jodi summers (edited 08-01-99).]

the topic of this forum became your damnable outright lies with respect to general bobby farrell and vmg you posted above

and you've been called on it

now edit the truth off this board again

posted 08-01-99 11:35 AM            

Rule #1 when dealing with a sociopath: do not engage.

The best thing to do is to ignore the offensive posts. Engaging in response only serves to fuel the fire, so to speak, and gives the antagonist power.

Phil has it spot-on in an earlier post: ignore inflammatory posts.

thanks..

posted 08-01-99 03:06 PM            

the powers that be have suggested that
we keep superfluous rantings out of these forums!

posted 08-01-99 08:11 PM            

It seems that this would put mp3.com in the role as a record company rather than as a service to listeners and musicians. Which bands get chosen for a radio campaign? How will it impact musicians with existing label affiliation, etc? Sticky questions.. I don't have any answers, only speculation. It would change the nature, most likely and at the very least the tenor of mp3.com.

To me, mp3.com is a part of the Next Big Media, i.e., the web as a delivery medium for entertainment. I'd like to see it left to the bands and to labels, whether old-school or new(net)-school, to push music to radio *and* to the web.

posted 08-02-99 09:51 AM         

that you should also know:

superliar jodi summers posted the following

Ty Gonty, CEO
FBi Entertainment

you ask...
What makes you think VMG is a fraud?

i write this because some time back, i emailed a dozen supposed customers that were listed on the vmg site and of the four that wrote back, no one had anything positive to say about the business model. some of the replies are posted somewhere on my bulletin boards. so i did my homework and that was the response i got.

the post contains three absolute and outright lies

lie number one: i emailed a dozen supposed customers that were listed on the vmg site

there are no customers whatsoever listed anywhere in the vmg site even though the linkpage contains urls and email addresses of those who do not agree with general bobby farrell or vmg

in fact the vmgs contract specifically forbids such attempts at customer endorsements by vmg

lie number two: no one had anything positive to say about the business model

opinions about a business model do not make it a fraud - only criminal activity does

and there are no complaints - not to be confused with the totally undocumentable lunatic ravings - against either general farrell or vmg listed anywhere and especially in jodi summers files and she cannot produce any such complaints because they do not exist

lie number three: some of the replies are posted somewhere on my bulletin boards

she also cannot produce those 'postings' because the do not exist either

a full search of mp3.com archives on August 1st, 1999 of VMG, VANDOR MUSIC GROUP, GENERAL BOBBY FARRELL, GENERAL FARRELL and BOBBY FARRELL produced an absolute zero of anything in jodi summers files

zero as in nothing

when I challenged her to post either the emails or her nonexistent 'postings' about them the challenge was deleted with a very snide and down-her-nose "go away"

therefore I repeat my challenge - jodi summers - either produce and post those nonexistent emails and your equally nonexistent commentaries about them as specified in your duly documented damned lies above - or apologize to the entire clientele of mp3.com

I challenge jodi summers and anyone else at mp3.com who wants to expend the time and energy to produce even one valid black mark against either general bobby farrell or vmg

it cant be done because there arent any - only the lunatic ravings of those who both life and morality have passed by

posted 08-02-99 10:12 AM         

Which brings the following questions to mind:

Is it expensive? How much per second of play? I bet this one will be tough to answer and vary from radio station to radio station.

Is there a one stop shop for a band to get his CD to that will get assured listening time over hundreds of radio stations and how much would that cost? Sounds like if you could get to the major radio station owners that your chances are good and the only guaranteed chance of being heard nationally or international. As a result, maybe many independent smaller radio stations would follow suit.

Maybe VMG or RadioWizard can give some tips here on the above..has this question already been asked or are the answers considered proprietery information?

Personally, I think there are plenty of non-musical advertisers which will pay bigger dollars for time. Music is the content which draws the media to listen to the radio in the first place.

Good music is a key to radio station success and station managers should be picky. A good radio model to me is a Radio Station where music content is free and big non-musical advertisers foot the bill to keep the radio station in business and artists in royalty payments.

Is it possible for "us" as a community to do better to provide the necessary tools to commercial radio so radio can find "good" music to air from content found on the internet? One big goal should be to save bands and artist money. How about radio stations? Can we save them money? Also, lets not forget the non-musical advertiser which should also be able to benefit from this.

IMO, anything that benefits all parties will work and it makes sense to try them all starting with what ever you can get for free.

Michael Butterfield
Music Global Network
musicglobalnetwork.com
Millions and Millions Served

posted 08-02-99 10:58 AM            

RadioWuz, you have the hide, the unmitigated gall, to speak of lunatic ravings? (from the language and style of your posts, obviously you're really the general, sadly masquerading under yet another persona - either that or someone that has been cloned from his DNA and totally without a will of your own, otherwise why would you care enough to post the same drivel in all three of these "Ask Jodi" forums, and be so egregiously verbatim in the VMG party line?).

We're still waiting for you to provide evidence that VMG has any product available for purchase at the major music chains, or viable major market radio play for your promo library/compilation CD clients anywhere in the continental United States (and please be specific about names, releases, and/or station call letters -something/anything that can be tracked down, verified and/or purchased).